Midnight Oil

[Powderworks] Re: NMOC-Is Saudi Arabia next?

Bruce Robertson the_oil_fish@yahoo.ca
Fri, 4 Apr 2003 14:46:23 -0500 (EST)


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Thanks Vengu, I'll have to make a trip to Indigo and check it out. Do you get the sense that we are about to witness another cartographic orgy which will see a 21st C 'carving up' of the MidEast? I recall a quote by Churchill - something to the effect of "...this morning, with the stroke of a pen, I created Jordan." Let's hope whatever emerges out of the current malaise is more organic and sensible for those souls who actually live there and will have to abide it. Not to sound too idealistic, but perhaps there will be an opportunity for peace, no doubt precarious, and maybe even the realization of the basic aspirations of the people? (locally of course). I mean, could anything be worse than the current boundaries, which are a hangover of, and increasingly a hostile reaction to, 20th C imperialism?
Regarding your comments on the predicted fall of the house of Saud, it seems that this is potentially another powerful justification for the scrap in Iraq: any number of the troublesome regimes around Iraq are teetering. All that's needed is a little push...and with the Saudi arrangement perhaps about to collapse, it would make sense to have a New Deal with somebody in the Gulf. Looks like Iraq may have just 'volunteered!' Ahh, realism - and such movers and shakers, these hawks...
Thanks again for the reference.
bruce in calgary
"It's the sound of the wind in the wings of a diving dove
 You better listen for the laugh of love."   :)
~ Bruce Cockburn
 "Lakshminarayanan, Vasudevan" <LakshminarayananV@msx.umsl.edu> wrote:ON this topic - you might find the article in the May 2003 issue of The Atlantic Monthly of great interest.The article is called "the fall of the house of Saud" and is written by Robert Baer, a former CIA operative and is taken from an upcoming book, Sleeping with the Devil.The author argues that given the increasingly dysfunctional Saudi royal family, and the corruption, that today's Saudi Arabia can't last much longer.  Very, very interestting reading with a lot of interesting facts. Vengu -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Robertson [mailto:the_oil_fish@yahoo.ca]
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 10:55 PM
To: powderworks@cs.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: [Powderworks] Re: NMOC-Is Saudi Arabia next?


Maybe somebody can confirm this...I heard or read somewhere that the American gov't is committed to ensuring the survival of the Saudi regime, and has been since 1945. Apparently Roosevelt/Truman recognized the centrality of oil - especially the NAZIs lack of it - in the outcome of WWII,  and therefore entered into this agreement with the Saudi prince to, in apparent perpetuity, ensure the flow of oil to the re-constructed, pro-Am. west, and the stability of the royal family in Saudi Arabia. Some would view all post-war struggles in the Gulf region as emanating from this agreement in one way or another. Whenever somebody threatened the peace/agreement, the USA beefed up their presence. If any of this is true, then an invasion of Saudi Arabia seems highly unlikely, although her neighbours ought to be a bit skittish. 
cheers, 
bruce in calgary, alberta (the newest 'auditing' member of OPEC - woohoo!) 

“The problem is not to take an axe to the pain

And make firewood out of it,

The main problem is the soul,

The problem is resurrection,

The problem, sir, will always be

How to plant love.”

        ~ Silvio Rodriguez (El Problema) 1994

 mark guenther <moecurlythanu@hotmail.com> wrote: 
Jacques wrote:

BTW, the talk of invading Saudi Arabia is a bit out there.  Won't happen
for any (large) number of reasons.  This list seems to be infected with
conspiracy talk that is a bit overboard.  "We went to war just to get
Haliburton a rebuilding contract".  "We are going to get Saudi Arabia next
because some document named "Pax Americana" says so".  No offense folks,
but puh-lease.  The chances of some of the things bandied about here
happening are about on the same order as seeing the Cubs win the World
Series.

______


Don't let it bug you too much Jacques. I watch political talk shows/debate shows on CNN & Fox from time to time, and I can tell you that the Far Left is every bit as whacked out as the Far Right. The answers lie in the sensible Center. Unfortunately, most people (who are moderates, I believe) are too busy with the mundanities of life to become politically involved. This leaves the political discourse to the zealots, who tend to gravitate to the extremes on both ends of the spectrum. 

There are valid arguments both for & against the war. I tend to come down on the side opposing the war, but not stridently so, as I think it's a question of judgement. Both sides have their points, and who can say for certain who is right? It's not the course I would have chosen were I running things, but much of the so-called "debate" is nothing more than shouting, slogans, name-calling, conspiracy theories,and knee-jerk reactions (from both sides.) Sad and unfortunate.

Mark







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<P>Thanks Vengu, I'll have to make a trip to Indigo and check it out. Do you get the sense that we are about to witness another cartographic orgy which will see a 21st C 'carving up' of the MidEast? I recall a quote by Churchill - something to the effect of "...this morning, with the stroke of a pen, I created Jordan." Let's hope whatever emerges out of the current&nbsp;malaise is more organic and sensible for those souls who actually live there and will have to abide it. Not to sound too idealistic, but perhaps there will be an opportunity for peace, no doubt precarious, and maybe even the realization of the basic aspirations of the people? (locally of course).&nbsp;I mean, could anything be worse than the current boundaries, which are a hangover of, and&nbsp;increasingly a hostile reaction to, 20th C imperialism?
<P>Regarding your comments on the predicted fall of the house of Saud, it seems that this is potentially another&nbsp;powerful justification for&nbsp;the scrap in Iraq: any number of the&nbsp;troublesome regimes around Iraq are teetering. All that's needed is a little push...and with the Saudi arrangement perhaps about to collapse, it would make sense to have&nbsp;a New Deal with somebody in the Gulf. Looks like Iraq may have just 'volunteered!' Ahh, realism - and such movers and shakers, these hawks...
<P>Thanks again for the reference.
<P>bruce in calgary
<P>"It's the sound of the wind in the wings of a diving dove
<P>&nbsp;You better listen for the laugh of love."&nbsp;&nbsp; :)
<P>~ Bruce Cockburn
<P>&nbsp;<B><I>"Lakshminarayanan, Vasudevan" &lt;LakshminarayananV@msx.umsl.edu&gt;</I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><SPAN class=872084315-04042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>ON this topic - you might find the article in the May 2003 issue of The Atlantic Monthly of great interest.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=872084315-04042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The article is called "the fall of the house of Saud" and is written by Robert Baer, a former CIA operative and is taken from an upcoming book, Sleeping with the Devil.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=872084315-04042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The author argues that given the increasingly dysfunctional Saudi royal family, and the corruption, that today's Saudi Arabia can't last much longer.&nbsp; Very, very interestting reading with a lot of interesting facts.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=872084315-04042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=872084315-04042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Vengu</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=872084315-04042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Bruce Robertson [mailto:the_oil_fish@yahoo.ca]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, April 03, 2003 10:55 PM<BR><B>To:</B> powderworks@cs.colorado.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Powderworks] Re: NMOC-Is Saudi Arabia next?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P>Maybe somebody can confirm this...I heard or read somewhere that the American gov't is committed to ensuring the survival of the Saudi regime, and has been since 1945. Apparently Roosevelt/Truman recognized the centrality of oil - especially the NAZIs lack of it -&nbsp;in the outcome of WWII, &nbsp;and therefore entered into this agreement with the Saudi prince to, in apparent perpetuity, ensure the flow of oil to the re-constructed, pro-Am. west, and the stability of the royal family in Saudi Arabia. Some would view all post-war struggles in the Gulf region as emanating from this agreement in one way or another. Whenever somebody threatened the peace/agreement, the USA beefed up their presence. If any of this is true, then an invasion of Saudi Arabia seems highly unlikely, although her neighbours ought to be a bit skittish. 
<P>cheers, 
<P>bruce in calgary, alberta&nbsp;(the newest 'auditing' member of OPEC - woohoo!) 
<P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>“The problem is not to take an axe to the pain</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>And make firewood out of it,</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>The main problem is the soul,</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>The problem is resurrection,</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>The problem, sir, will always be</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>How to plant love.”</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">~ Silvio Rodriguez (El Problema) 1994</SPAN></P>
<P>&nbsp;<B><I>mark guenther &lt;moecurlythanu@hotmail.com&gt;</I></B> wrote: 
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Jacques wrote:<BR><BR>BTW, the talk of invading Saudi Arabia is a bit out there.&nbsp; Won't happen<BR>for any (large) number of reasons.&nbsp; This list seems to be infected with<BR>conspiracy talk that is a bit overboard.&nbsp; "We went to war just to get<BR>Haliburton a rebuilding contract".&nbsp; "We are going to get Saudi Arabia next<BR>because some document named "Pax Americana" says so".&nbsp; No offense folks,<BR>but puh-lease.&nbsp; The chances of some of the things bandied about here<BR>happening are about on the same order as seeing the Cubs win the World<BR>Series.</P>
<P>______<BR></P>
<P>Don't let it bug you too much Jacques. I watch political talk shows/debate shows on CNN &amp; Fox from time to time, and I can tell you that the Far Left is every bit as whacked out as the Far Right. The answers lie in the sensible Center. Unfortunately, most people (who are moderates, I believe) are too busy with the mundanities of life to become politically involved. This leaves the political discourse to the zealots, who tend to gravitate to the extremes on both ends of the spectrum. </P>
<P>There are valid arguments both for &amp; against the war. I tend to come down on the side opposing the war, but not stridently so, as I think it's a question of judgement. Both sides have their points, and who can say for certain who is right? It's not the course I would have chosen were I running things, but much of the so-called "debate" is nothing more than shouting, slogans, name-calling, conspiracy theories,and knee-jerk reactions (from both sides.) Sad and unfortunate.</P>
<P>Mark<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
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