Midnight Oil

[Powderworks] August 6, 1945 (NMOC)

David Norberg djnorberg@earthlink.net
Sun, 11 Aug 2002 15:19:53 -0700


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I know it's off-topic, but I'll throw in a bit more.  Maybe it's time to =
resurrect the Woodships list?  (I don't know how to.)

I'm not going to speak for others, but I focus more on the decision to =
use the bomb more than Japanese attacks because I'm an American.  As we =
have a representative government I feel a sense of responsibility for =
the actions of the government.  I wasn't around in 1945, but history =
doesn't go away.  Anyway, I certainly don't excuse Japanese atrocities =
and I think one would be hard pressed to find many who do.  As for =
justice, again some high-ranking military leaders were deeply troubled =
by the use of the bomb.  Were not talking about peaceniks here, we're =
talking about people who also believed action needed to taken.  But, =
they felt that justice did not require the use of the bomb.  (Nor were =
they convinced that it had to be used to save American lives.) =20

Secondly, context is crucial.  It's mentioned below that WWII started =
for the U.S. when Pearl Harbor was bombed.  However, the events leading =
up to the war need to be considered if one is going to have a good =
understanding of that war.  I think it's best to look back to the 1850s =
when the U.S. coerced Japan to open its borders to trade and imposed a =
form of economic imperialism.  The coming of the West acted as a =
catalyst for tensions that existed in Japanese society and spurred the =
Meiji Restoration of 1868.  The governments that followed the =
restoration sought to build Japan into a powerful state that could =
defend itself.

Japanese colonialism was brutal.  It was also a reaction to Western =
colonialism, and Japan sought to become a world power as Britain and the =
U.S. had done.  Ultimately, I don't think either side can claim moral =
purity - Western colonialism was not bloodless.

There are many works on these subjects.  A couple of useful ones are:

John Dower, War Without Mercy
    -His work looks at racism (Japanese and American) during the war in =
the Pacific and looks at atrocities on both sides.=20
=20
Kenneth Pyle, The Making of Modern Japan
    -This is a general survey on the development of Japan.  This =
provides context for understanding Japanese colonialism.

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Bawolski@aol.com=20
  To: powderworks@cs.colorado.edu=20
  Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 9:40 AM
  Subject: Re: [Powderworks] August 6, 1945


  In a message dated 8/9/2002 1:06:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, =
oznut@swipnet.se writes:



    Mike,

    Let's consider also that you are not speaking for all the people of =
USA, just the other day someone posted to the list and included 3 or 4 =
quotes from high American politicans and militaries who didn't quite see =
it your way.

    Some of "the people who are quick to condemn the United States for =
using it" are indeed Americans.



  Magnus - I realize that.  It is only my opinion, and I'm aware that a =
lot of=20
  Americans feel that it was the wrong thing to do.  (I wonder if the =
second=20
  bomb was necessary).  But once again, my point is that some people=20
  condemn the use of the bombs to the point of villifying the U.S. and=20
  victimizing Japan (at this point I should also say that I am not =
anti-Japanese,
  I'm not holding any grudge or hatred, we are discussing the situation =
as it stood
  in 1945).  World War II started for the U. S. when the Japanese =
attacked=20
  Pearl Harbor, and their atrocities during the war are well documented. =
=20
  The U. S. did what it ultimately thought was right to finally put an =
end to it.
  A lot of politicians and military people and even some of the =
scientists who
  helped develop it did not agree (some for fear of the can of worms =
that=20
  it would open),  but in hindsight I think it was the right thing to =
do, even=20
  though it was a sad and terrible thing.  The atomic bomb would have=20
  been developed eventually by Russia, and who knows, if both the U.S.
  and Russia had it without the knowledge of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
  maybe one of them may have used it with much more devastating effect
  on the entire planet.

  Mike

  Mike=20

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I know it's off-topic, but I'll throw =
in a bit=20
more.&nbsp; Maybe it's time to resurrect the Woodships list?&nbsp; (I =
don't know=20
how to.)</FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm not going to speak for others, but =
I focus more=20
on the decision to use the bomb more than&nbsp;Japanese attacks because =
I'm an=20
American.&nbsp; As we have a representative government I feel a sense of =

responsibility for the actions of the government.&nbsp; I wasn't around =
in 1945,=20
but history doesn't go away.&nbsp; Anyway, I certainly don't excuse =
Japanese=20
atrocities and I think one would be hard pressed to find many who =
do.&nbsp; As=20
for justice, again some high-ranking military leaders were deeply =
troubled by=20
the use of the bomb.&nbsp; Were not talking about peaceniks here, we're =
talking=20
about people who also believed action needed to taken.&nbsp; But, they =
felt that=20
justice did not&nbsp;require the use of the bomb.&nbsp; (Nor were they =
convinced=20
that it had to be used to save American lives.)&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Secondly, context is crucial.&nbsp; =
It's mentioned=20
below that WWII started for the U.S. when Pearl Harbor was bombed.&nbsp; =

However, the events leading up to the war need to be considered if one =
is going=20
to have a good understanding of that war.&nbsp; I think it's best to =
look back=20
to the 1850s when the U.S. coerced Japan to open its borders to trade =
and=20
imposed a form of economic imperialism.&nbsp; The coming of the West =
acted as a=20
catalyst for tensions that existed in Japanese society and spurred the =
Meiji=20
Restoration of 1868.&nbsp; The governments that followed the restoration =
sought=20
to build Japan into a powerful state that could defend =
itself.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Japanese colonialism was brutal.&nbsp; =
It was also=20
a reaction to Western colonialism, and Japan sought to become a world =
power as=20
Britain and the U.S. had done.&nbsp; Ultimately, I don't think either =
side can=20
claim moral purity - Western colonialism was not bloodless.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There are many works on these =
subjects.&nbsp; A=20
couple of useful ones are:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>John Dower, <EM>War Without =
Mercy</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -His work looks at =
racism=20
(Japanese and American) during the war in the Pacific and looks at =
atrocities on=20
both sides.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kenneth Pyle, <EM>The Making of Modern=20
Japan</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><EM>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </EM>-This is a =
general=20
survey on the development of Japan.&nbsp; This provides context for=20
understanding Japanese colonialism.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:Bawolski@aol.com" =
title=3DBawolski@aol.com>Bawolski@aol.com</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:powderworks@cs.colorado.edu"=20
  title=3Dpowderworks@cs.colorado.edu>powderworks@cs.colorado.edu</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 09, 2002 =
9:40=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Powderworks] =
August 6,=20
  1945</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>In a =
message dated=20
  8/9/2002 1:06:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:oznut@swipnet.se">oznut@swipnet.se</A> =
writes:<BR><BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE">Mike,<BR><BR>Let's consider also that you are not =
speaking for=20
    all the people of USA, just the other day someone posted to the list =
and=20
    included 3 or 4 quotes from high American politicans and militaries =
who=20
    didn't quite see it your way.<BR><BR>Some of "the people who are =
quick to=20
    condemn the United States for using it" are indeed=20
  Americans.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Magnus - I realize that.&nbsp; It =
is only=20
  my opinion, and I'm aware that a lot of <BR>Americans feel that it was =
the=20
  wrong thing to do.&nbsp; (I wonder if the second <BR>bomb was=20
  necessary).&nbsp; But once again, my point is that some people =
<BR>condemn the=20
  use of the bombs to the point of villifying the U.S. and =
<BR>victimizing Japan=20
  (at this point I should also say that I am not anti-Japanese,<BR>I'm =
not=20
  holding any grudge or hatred, we are discussing the situation as it=20
  stood<BR>in 1945).&nbsp; World War II started for the U. S. when the =
Japanese=20
  attacked <BR>Pearl Harbor, and their atrocities during the war are =
well=20
  documented.&nbsp; <BR>The U. S. did what it ultimately thought was =
right to=20
  finally put an end to it.<BR>A lot of politicians and military people =
and even=20
  some of the scientists who<BR>helped develop it did not agree (some =
for fear=20
  of the can of worms that <BR>it would open),&nbsp; but in hindsight I =
think it=20
  was the right thing to do, even <BR>though it was a sad and terrible=20
  thing.&nbsp; The atomic bomb would have <BR>been developed eventually =
by=20
  Russia, and who knows, if both the U.S.<BR>and Russia had it without =
the=20
  knowledge of Hiroshima and Nagasaki<BR>maybe one of them may have used =
it with=20
  much more devastating effect<BR>on the entire=20
  planet.<BR><BR>Mike<BR><BR>Mike</FONT> =
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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